crypto ([info]cryptoxin) wrote,
@ 2009-01-14 13:38:00
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Cultural appropriation
[info]rydra_wong  has a round-up of links to current discussions on cultural appropriation. If you only have time to read one, my pick is I Didn't Dream of Dragons from [info]deepad  -- this is maybe the most powerful and compelling post that I've ever seen on LJ, on any topic. I can tell that I'll be thinking about it for a long time.

[info]rydra_wong  warns about the comments to one of the other linked posts, and it only takes a quick skim to see why. It's so infuriating to see white people turn the issue into a drama with themselves at the center, where it's all about their conflict, their angst and anxiety, their needs and desires. Where people of color are only conceived of as undifferentiated masses of potential critics with impossible standards, whose sole form of engagement as readers is to scrutinize fiction for traces of racism to be denounced -- where white people's sense of vulnerability to the extreme perceived harms of being challenged on putative racism threatens to eclipse entirely any sustained attention to and engagement with the lived experience of racism among actual people of color. Or else people of color are alternatively conceived of as the passive and tragically silent beneficiaries of white writers' inspiring efforts and heroic journeys towards a beneficent multiculturalism as a kind of charitable afterthought to the main business of storytelling, which surely should inspire an appropriate posture of gratitude.

All of which is just the absurd corollary of the white writer's plaintiff cry, "Damned if I do, damned if I don't!" As if the most important thing at stake in the conversation is white people's ability to feel good about themselves and get the proper respect and validation for their self-regard. And the implied burden for this outcome falls on people of color, whether through silence, approbation, commiseration, advice, permission, patience, or erasure.

And I say all this as a white person who has lived it -- not as a writer, but in other contexts, where I've prioritized feeling good about myself over everything else and made that the primary, non-negotiable condition of my participation. I'd like to think that I don't do that anymore, though that urge still hits me and I still fight against those defense mechanisms. But one thing that really helped me in not doing that was -- selfishly -- discovering how much better I felt when I didn't turn things into a drama about me, even if only in my head. I vividly remember a meeting where a couple of people of color brought up an instance where they felt that I'd been insensitive or ignorant to illustrate a broader theme. My gut instinct was to defend myself and launch into a justification, or explain that they'd misinterpreted me -- even before I paused to reconsider the situation from their point of view, in light of what they were actually saying. And that was so completely irrelevant to the matter of hand, which wasn't about me. Ironically, they were saying that they used me as an example because they didn't think badly of me or have a grievance with me -- in other words, they trusted me to appreciate where they were coming from, to support them on the broader issue, and to not react defensively and hijack the meeting until my ego had been assuaged. I resisted my gut instinct, and amazingly did not suffer a grievous narcissistic wound but discovered that the discussion proceeded much more productively for everyone involved.

More and more, I believe that sometimes the best answer to "Okay, but what am I supposed to do now?" is really to stay with the discussion and sit with your discomfort or anxiety instead of rushing towards a safe perch. Sometimes the best answer is to leave yourself open to other people's pain, hope, and struggle, even or especially when it threatens to decenter you and destabilize your world. And sometimes, the best answer is to put the 'I' aside and look towards asking "What do we do?" even if that question is difficult to engage with (and much easier to opt out of in favor of individual responses) until all of us have done some work to make that 'we' come more fully into existence as a substantive, meaningful force.



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[info]etrangere
2009-01-14 08:07 pm UTC (link)
Hahaha, yeah, everything you said. Yes.

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[info]cryptoxin
2009-01-14 09:46 pm UTC (link)
Excellent icon choice!

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[info]rydra_wong
2009-01-14 08:24 pm UTC (link)
rydra_wong has a round-up of links to current discussions on cultural appropriation.

*adds this post to it, creating a recursive loop*

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[info]cryptoxin
2009-01-14 09:49 pm UTC (link)
*adds this post to it, creating a recursive loop*

How are you with time dilation fields?

*shifts eyes anxiously between the clock and my to-do list*

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[info]cofax7
2009-01-14 09:23 pm UTC (link)
Well said.

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[info]cryptoxin
2009-01-14 09:49 pm UTC (link)
Thank you.

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[info]idhren24
2009-01-14 09:40 pm UTC (link)
And sometimes, the best answer is to put the 'I' aside and look towards asking "What do we do?" even if that question is difficult to engage with (and much easier to opt out of in favor of individual responses) until all of us have done some work to make that 'we' come more fully into existence as a substantive, meaningful force.

YES. May I quote you on this?

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[info]cryptoxin
2009-01-14 09:49 pm UTC (link)
Sure, feel free.

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[info]norah
2009-01-14 09:43 pm UTC (link)
Heh. I mean, yes, my immediate reaction on reading those posts is to ask how a white writer can be a good ally in a fictional way - what can *I* do - and I don't know that that's making it all about me so much as it is like when I just need my partner to listen to me and sympathize and he keeps trying to *fix* things. I want to help! How can I help? I am part of the problem! How can I become part of the solution? ... except there is no solution on a personal, individual level. I don't think it's wrong to ask the question - I'm not asking anyone to answer it for me, just pondering it in text - but then that's a microcosm of the whole thing right there, sort of.

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[info]cryptoxin
2009-01-14 10:02 pm UTC (link)
...when I just need my partner to listen to me and sympathize and he keeps trying to *fix* things.

I have so been that guy. And there, for me, shifting the focus to solutions was always at least partly about my discomfort with the role and responsibility of bearing witness to anger and pain and frustration.

I don't think that it's wrong to ask the question either -- or at least, it would seem weird or wrong if the question never even came to mind, even if it's not voiced or set aside for a while. So I guess that for me, it's more about understanding that impulse as an emotional response that's shaped by how and where I'm positioned in the issue/problem/discussion.

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(no subject) - [info]norah, 2009-01-14 10:19 pm UTC

[info]sparkymonster
2009-01-15 09:12 pm UTC (link)
http://damaliayo.com/pdfs/I%20CAN%20FIX%20IT_racism.pdf

"I can Fix It!" by damali ayo includes concrete things white people can do to fix racism.

Also
http://delicious.com/starkeymonster/forcluelesswhitepeople

And look in general for information about ally work.

The biggest thing you can do as an ally is to shut up and listen. Seriously. It can be hard to do, but practice makes perfect. The more I listen, sit with my discomfort adn really listen, the better ally I can be.

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(no subject) - [info]norah, 2009-01-16 06:51 pm UTC

[info]anatsuno
2009-01-14 10:21 pm UTC (link)
Yeah. I had some of these entries open in tabs for a day or two before I could read them, and I used rydra_wong's roundup to read in order today, finally. I had an impulse to jump in the comment fray several times and refrained because I thought that like you say, it'd be more interesting on the whole to sit back and think about things longer. I looked at the Remyth project and started wondering if there are myths I feel shaped me in an appropriative way - and/or myths culturally 'natively' relevant to me that have been appropriated. I feel like I'm floundering a lot with all this, but at least I understand now that this instability, the discomfort of the absence of easy answers, is the beginning of a process, a mark that I'm at least facing the right direction.

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[info]cryptoxin
2009-01-15 06:04 pm UTC (link)
I'm trying to think of certain kinds of discomfort as something analogous to physical pain -- they can give us important clues and signals that we should pay attention to as such, which would otherwise get lost or masked or drown out in the rush to alleviate the symptom/sensation.

The Remyth project is a really great idea. I grew up thinking of myths as something that belonged to everyone and hence noone, this free cultural buffet that you could feast on at will which magically appeared from nowhere (or at least, an obscure pre-modern past untethered from the present). And I'm really rethinking that, as I get more critical of how the white U.S. (sub)cultures that I've spent most of my adult life in, which so typically pride themselves on rejection of "mainstream" values, routinely appropriate and commodify so much in the form of hipster kitsch and ornament (Mexican religious iconography, Hindu gods & goddesses, Chinese dragons, Vodou & Santería) or DIY paganism.

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[info]egretplume
2009-01-14 10:25 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for this thoughtful post.

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[info]cryptoxin
2009-01-15 06:05 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for reading.

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[info]princessofg
2009-01-14 11:58 pm UTC (link)
yes. i particularly appreciated the comment in one of the threads where someone pointed out that yes, it hurts to be accused of racism or to struggle, as a white person, with being in these discussions, looking over your shoulder, wondering if you've been blind or stupid or complicit, but that all that is nothing compared to living with racism day in and day out.

so the least we can do is listen and stay engaged and as you say, not make it about MY discomfort but about the matter at hand. and white writers will get it wrong and we can't solve centuries of oppression overnight but we can keep doing our part and not getting into the idea of the awarding of points to ourselves for being such Good Liberals. Because it's not about that.

Edited at 2009-01-15 12:00 am UTC

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[info]cryptoxin
2009-01-15 06:13 pm UTC (link)
I'm really wondering why it is that so many white people feel such a sense of terror at the prospect of being accused of racism. That just doesn't seem to apply to men's reactions towards criticisms of sexism, or straight people's reactions to charges of homophobia, or really anything else I can think of. And I have no idea whether this is specific to the U.S., or at least intensified here. It's almost like a phobia or a PTSD-like trigger. And I remember feeling that way myself, and that conditioned emotional response is still part of me, but I can't really explain where it comes from and why it seems so exceptional compared to responses to other kinds of criticism. For me, it has something to do with shame, but I haven't been able to really tease it out much further.

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(no subject) - [info]princessofg, 2009-01-15 10:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cofax7, 2009-01-15 11:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cryptoxin, 2009-01-16 01:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]darkrosetiger, 2009-01-17 08:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lian_li, 2009-01-16 11:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lian_li, 2009-01-16 11:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cryptoxin, 2009-01-17 04:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lian_li, 2009-01-17 05:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cryptoxin, 2009-01-17 06:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lian_li, 2009-01-17 08:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cryptoxin, 2009-01-19 03:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lian_li, 2009-01-19 11:52 pm UTC

[info]a_white_rain
2009-01-15 01:54 am UTC (link)
Yes.

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[info]cryptoxin
2009-01-15 06:13 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for reading.

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[info]laurashapiro
2009-01-15 02:16 am UTC (link)
Thank you.

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[info]cryptoxin
2009-01-15 06:15 pm UTC (link)
Hey, thank you -- I really appreciated your post last year about people of color in vids and in the vidding community, and I don't think I ever told you that.

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(no subject) - [info]laurashapiro, 2009-01-15 07:00 pm UTC
here via rydra_wong
[info]faithhopetricks
2009-01-15 05:34 pm UTC (link)
Great post -- thank you.

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Re: here via rydra_wong
[info]cryptoxin
2009-01-15 06:16 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for reading.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

here via a lot of places at this point, I think :O
[info]upstart_crow
2009-01-15 06:01 pm UTC (link)
I'm a white woman, and like I've said a few times, one who has grown up in a culture that is/was fairly homgenous (Utah ... at least during the 1990s, when there were all of 2 black kids in my elementary school, and not a lot of Latin students until I made it to high school. Yikes!), I appreciate hearing other white people speak on this issue too. I will say that I'm still trying to figure out how racism works, and what CA is, which is why I remain silent in most of these debates and read and listen. I don't have much to contribute yet, and am trying to get to a point where I do. So ... thank you so much for this :)

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Re: here via a lot of places at this point, I think :O
[info]cryptoxin
2009-01-15 06:26 pm UTC (link)
You're welcome, and thanks for reading. I didn't have anything immediate to contribute to [info]deepad's post that I linked to -- I really want to spend some time thinking about it and coming back to it. And then I realized, when I posted this, that I was basically doing the same thing that I was criticizing by centering my post on white people. But I do think that there's a value for white people processing these issues in our own LJs & in discussions with each other.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: here via a lot of places at this point, I think :O - [info]upstart_crow, 2009-01-15 06:42 pm UTC
Re: here via a lot of places at this point, I think :O - [info]morgan_dhu, 2009-01-15 11:06 pm UTC
Re: here via a lot of places at this point, I think :O - [info]cryptoxin, 2009-01-15 11:37 pm UTC
Re: here via a lot of places at this point, I think :O - [info]princessofg, 2009-01-15 11:09 pm UTC

[info]sparkymonster
2009-01-15 09:08 pm UTC (link)
Quick link drop
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/02/how-not-to-be-insane-when-accused-of-racism/
Amp’s Guide to Not Being an Insane-O White Person When Accused of Racism.

This is a classic for a reason.

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[info]cryptoxin
2009-01-15 09:29 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for this, and the links that you left in the other thread.

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(no subject) - [info]sparkymonster, 2009-01-15 09:32 pm UTC

[info]flingslass
2009-01-17 07:41 am UTC (link)
Thank you for this post. I've been reading a lot of the post on this issue and (linked through [info]friendshipper) I think you hit the nail on the head. I felt bad and anxious and all the rest but you've helped me understand that as a White Australian it's not about ME. The first step is to recognise that I have been priviledged in ways a PoC hasn't had access to.

And sometimes, the best answer is to put the 'I' aside and look towards asking "What do we do?" even if that question is difficult to engage with (and much easier to opt out of in favor of individual responses) until all of us have done some work to make that 'we' come more fully into existence as a substantive, meaningful force.
This was the comment that hit me the most. Because I want to do my best in this world be that living in the Real world or on lj or writing something anything.

I have got a little scared about commenting on this issue because I don't want to say the wrong thing. It's not my intention to hurt another person through my own ignorance.

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[info]cryptoxin
2009-01-17 05:17 pm UTC (link)
Thanks; and you've probably seen the great links that [info]sparkymonster has been posting above and in other posts.

And LJ fandom actually has a lot of great tools for exploring & working through these issues through fiction & discussion, if we choose to use them. I've seen a lot of white people in fandom express anxiety or hesitancy around writing characters of color, and I can understand where that comes from, but (admittedly as a non-writer) I keep thinking, "Why not start with a couple drabbles or a 5 Things story?"

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[info]executrix
2009-01-20 02:27 pm UTC (link)
I'm not really surprised at the constant recurrence of debate about racism in fandom, because important questions are never really resolved. One hopeful element (....possibly all the way at the bottom of the jar...) is that there have been instances of white people shutting up and listening to what PoCs are saying. I not only want to subscribe to this situation's newsletter, I want to have its little tiny babies.

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[info]cryptoxin
2009-01-20 03:15 pm UTC (link)
I hope that's true; I generally think that it is, but I also see certain threads which turn outright nasty and foster a hostile environment towards the people of color raising these issues.

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(no subject) - [info]executrix, 2009-01-20 03:38 pm UTC

[info]onelittlesleep
2009-03-09 03:39 am UTC (link)
I'm just finally getting a chance to read through Rydra_wong's links when my baby sleeps, and you were next on the list.

There is just so much I don't know. It's scary to feel so clueless. But it's also exhilarating to know that there are things I can learn if I can just swallow my embarrassment and defensiveness and open my goddamn eyes.

Thanks for your post.

(Reply to this)


[info]kinfae
2009-05-31 09:06 am UTC (link)
What I think is really hard, for me at least, is to be a POC and to be told that I'm not a "real" POC because my opinions are different in many ways on things like cultural appropriation. Obviously if I'm different, I can't be real, right? It's just another way of enforcing stereotypes. All POC must feel the way some do. We can't have difference of opinion.

I happen to feel that the main business /is/ storytelling, and that people should be allowed to tell the stories they wish, and if we want other people to respect our stories and our spaces, we need to respect theirs. Does that make me somehow less a person?

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[info]cryptoxin
2009-05-31 06:49 pm UTC (link)
In those situations, do you think it's really about questioning your authenticity as a person of color? I'm asking because, where I've seen these dynamics play out, it's more often about how someone participates and positions themselves in the discussion.

I'm not a person of color, but I do deal with differences of opinion in groups that I'm part of. There are times when I don't agree with the rest of the group about whether an issue is a problem or a priority, or if it is then how we should best address it. In those situations, I make choices -- say, whether to try to persuade the other people in my group about my point of view, or stand back and not participate this time, or back them up because there's a larger principle at stake. But regardless of which choice I make, I stay focused on not undermining the other people in my group -- because there's already plenty of people on the outside ready to dismiss or attack us.

So I guess I expect that there are differences of opinion amongst every group; the question is how groups negotiate them without losing the ability to take action even when not every single group member agrees on the issue.

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